Let's Talk "Benefits of Plant Based Cooking" with Robina Barlow (S.2, Ep. 7)

Ever wonder about the real benefits of plant-based cooking on your health and well-being?  Well, we did too so we turned to plant-based nutrition expert Robina Barlow for some answers.  Robina strongly believes that a plant-based diet is the best way to attain optimal health, prevent/reverse disease, and she loves sharing this information with others.  She also shares some easy ways to turn that Sunday Soul Food dinner into a plant-based delight!  

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Hi, I'm Glenda. And I'm Lisa. And we are Two Black Moms and a Mic. Between us, we have six kids, four boys and two girls. And we're here to talk to you about everything from diapers to degrees. Welcome to our podcast. Welcome to our podcast. Today, we've got Robin O. Barlow, and we're going to talk about vegan lifestyle and vegan diets, everything vegan. Robinette is a certified licensed Food for Life instructor. She has a certificate in plant-based nutrition from the T. Colin Campbell Center for Nutrition Studies. She attended the Forks Over Knives Plant-Based Cooking School at the Ruby Cooking School. She is certified in diabetes prevention as a lifestyle coach, and she teaches classes with the African American Health Program in Montgomery County, Maryland, and she teaches Food for Life classes throughout the D.C. metropolitan area. Robinette, thanks so much for joining us today. Well, thank you so much for having me. We're really excited to talk to you because we've really been interested in exploring what it means to be vegan and how hard it is to adopt a vegan lifestyle and like the benefits of it. So can you tell me how you got started in this space? Yes. So about eight years ago or a little bit more, I went to my primary care physician and And they did a workup and what have you. And as the doctor went over my numbers, the labs with me, he said, you know, you're in pretty good health, but your numbers are starting to rise. In other words, your blood pressure's going up a little bit. Your cholesterol is up. Your weight is up a little bit. But you're good. You're good. There's nothing to do until you need, you know, some medicine. And then I'll prescribe it for you. So you're pretty good. And I thought, that does not sound right to me. I want to know what I can do between now and then to hopefully prevent that from ever coming. There are a couple of things that influenced me. One is we had a cousin who had all sorts of medical issues, but had come back by changing his diet. And I saw that. I was impressed. When I made food, I would make vegan food because I knew that that's what was being eaten. And one day I was also shocked because he said no oil. And I thought, what? Anyway, I started doing a lot of research and I found the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and I call it PCRM. They're interested in human health, animal health and well-being. And they do study, they do a lot of studies on the effects of food on lifestyle and food on health. And they had a program where they taught us cooking skills, you know, nutrition and cooking skills to help us live a better life. My interest was just really, really peaked. I went to those classes. I learned a lot from them in terms of food and nutrition. They were teaching a class. You could get certified learning that information. And I applied to do that. I've thought this is going to help me. It's going to help people I love. It's going to help our Black population who is suffering from many chronic diseases due to food mostly. It's interesting too, because a lot of people are told, you know, you're on the brink of this and you're on the brink of that, but you really took it to the next level by really drilling down on how diet can kind of explained as the inevitable trajectory if you make no changes, right? So I was also greatly influenced. I've always been interested in knowing more about food and its relationship to health. I lost my mother when she was 42. And to me, that's unfathomable. And I thought, why did this happen? She had chronic issues. I learned something from that. And I stopped eating red meat at that time. But, you know, still chicken, fish and turkey and all that. And I wasn't eating pork. And I thought I was in good shape until that doctor said things were going in the wrong. Oh, you stopped eating red meat before you got the diagnosis from your doctor. Oh, yeah. The red meat was when I was 20, you know, but I ate other things. So that's not to say people can't eat that. But for me, I did that and it worked. Well, did you go vegan right after you talked to your doctor or was that over a process over a period of time? Oh, it took a little time. It's say maybe say early in that year. Oh, within a matter of months then. You know, I can't remember exactly the time period, but I will say I went to see him. I learned about CRM and what they were doing. And I did other research. It seems like it was within that year. I said to my family, you know what? I am making a big change. And I announced it at Thanksgiving. And I said that was going to happen in the new year. And I said, I'll still make the other food, but I will no longer eat it. That's kind of how it got started. And getting the training, not only from PCRM, but then reaching out to find out more about the Center for Nutrition Studies. And I took some classes at another university online, which were general nutrition classes. And the more I learned, the more I was interested in learning more. You're teaching classes now, right? Yes. What's the hardest part about getting other people to adopt a vegan lifestyle? Yeah, before you answer that, you mentioned early on that you want to refer to it as a plant-based versus the vegan-based. So when we're asking, should we refer to it as plant-based? Whatever you want, and I will answer. And let me make a definition. Vegan started out being people who did not want to harm animals. And then, you know, you have ethical vegans. They say, I don't want to touch the animals. You have environmental vegans, and that includes them too. And then you have dietary vegans. But those who are strictest cover all of that. I would say I'm a dietary vegan. And so sometimes I don't use that because people will say they'll use the name of one of these groups that is very much into protecting the animals and not eating the animals. And that becomes sometimes kind of political. It's sort of a dividing word for some people. It's maybe becoming less so now. So I like to use plant-based because vegans are plant-based. But I would say some people stretch what plant-based means. You know, they may add other things in with it. But not to be divisive in conversation and so that people might listen. I say plant-based and most people can accept that without having a visceral reaction. But I love vegans too. Yeah. No, thank you. Thank you for that clarity. What are the benefits that you've seen? from transitioning into a vegan diet or plant-based diet. Just stick with whichever one. And so the benefits, I'll start with my own personal benefits, which is why I'm motivated to teach others. Within, let's say I started around in January, I gave up everything but salmon. And salmon was just something that we did at home every week, you know, on Sundays. And so I said, I'll still keep eating the same thing with my husband. And eventually I said, I'll keep making it, but I'm not eating it anymore. And so within about three months, I went back to the doctor and all the numbers look just fabulous. Three months. Wow, that's fast. It is fast. But better than that, when you move out of my realm, there are people that have seen substantial changes in their labs within one month. Wow. Because we do things by habit. We kind of eat the same way over and over. And when you make radical changes, you will see radical changes in your numbers. I was trying to reduce my sugar intake. So I stopped the sugar with the coffee and I would try to do, you know, non-sugary whatever. And I went into like, I was not pleasant to be around withdrawal, right? But I have to say, though, after it took me about three weeks, but it was much easier after like two weeks, three weeks, and I didn't miss it. And now I'm not as conscious of not having sugar, but like doesn't bother me to not have so much sugar anymore. Like I'm not thinking about it as much, but it's more habitual now. for me than it used to be. And that's excellent. And so you touch on two points. One is that when you make a change, it takes a while for it to become a habit. And our tastes change. We want to make the change. And then when we make the change, our taste buds change. And then coming up with a new habit, it takes time. And some will say 21 days. That is a good thing. And so I know we want to take in less sugar. I will also say... You mean the oils? Fat being oiled, those things that harden. Polyunsaturated, you don't have to worry about so much. And some things that do, in fact, harden the saturated fats at room temperature. Any of those. And there's some controversy about the oils and the healthy oils. And there's a why for whatever answers I give you. So yes, the fats are important. You need some, don't need nearly what we take. We were talking a little bit before we went on air about how good soul food is. Yeah. And I know I'm like, so during Christmas and Thanksgiving, you know, there's certain soul food dishes that I make for my parents in particular, you know, the greens with the salty ham hocks or whatever that you put in there. Or have you gone to turkey? Well, yeah. So I've gone to turkey, smoked turkey. So I put it in there. But to me, it's like not that much of a difference, quite honestly. Maybe the smoked turkey is a little bit better, but it still has a lot of salt in it. But there's some people who eat the soul food really good every day, all the time. My parents, you know, they grew up on it. It was like every day for them. But how do you work with people who, you know, are used to that style of cooking and, you know, you've kind of got to get them away from it and into sort of a new style of cooking that's healthier and better for their bodies? So I suggest that people, you can start with small steps and work your way up. For instance, you know, I might say, well, and this is in general, then I'll talk about soul food. Just say, well, do a meatless Monday or do a meatless breakfast or do something like that. When it comes to soul food, what I do with people is say, let's find substitutes for that. Substitutes that taste good. And sometimes those substitutes to me are transition foods. The substitutes aren't a whole lot better, but they're better. And then hopefully eventually the taste buds begin to change. And they'll eat it less. So let me just say I like soul food. And so I don't eat it that often. But two things I do. So greens. Greens is everybody should be eating greens every day. There's no reason those greens can't taste good. But to make it less fatty, I would use seasonings for it. What I do is I saute rather than oil. I saute in low sodium rice broth, vegetable broth. And then I will add lots of garlic or onion, maybe some red pepper flakes. I'm trying to think of what else I might put out. Maybe a little liquid smoke. Okay, not a lot, a little bit. And, you know, even my non-vegan husband likes those greens. And that takes us into another segue. Anyway, we'll leave it at that. So what we do is try to find substitutes, essentially. Mm-hmm. And the other thing people love is mac and cheese. So I have shown different ways to make mac and cheese without the dairy, without the cheese, and without added oil even. There are some recipes that will have that. You can use a soy in that with some nutritional yeast, or you can use some kind of nut cashew and nutritional yeast and some seasonings and what have you with the pasta. And it's not the same. But when you know you're eating something that's good for you, that's not artery clogging, you might consider it. That's what we try to do. And I will tell you something that I like I don't make a lot, like crab cakes. I'll make crab cakes, but make it with hearts of palm or either some artichoke hearts. And the truth of the matter is when you put seasoning into something, that's similar to the seasoning, say a crab cake comes with, it brings up the sense that, okay, I didn't get the crab cake. This is pretty darn good. So what are you saying? You don't have crab cake instead. It's made with artichoke. I've had them made with chickpeas. I've tried that at a Rockville's farmer's market. There is a vegan store that comes and sells black bean patties. And they also have a patty that they call it, Crab cake. And it's chickpeas and a bunch of different seasonings. And it's really good. It's very tasty. And I've tried it at home too. So I'm going to have to try the one with the artichokes because I haven't done that. Yeah, the artichokes are good. But what I like even better is when I use hearts of palms. Ah, okay. So hearts of palms, that works very well. And so that's what we're trying to do in many instances is find something that's a good substitute. And, you know, my husband will say, well, that was pretty good for a vegan. Oh, really? Yeah. I don't know if I could do the vegan crab cakes past my Maryland crab father, who loves crab cakes, but I would like them. I'm sure I would like them. So what I was going to say is, so there's a soul food restaurant that I will go to. I go there almost like for my cheats. Have you ever been to New Vegan? N-U and then V-E-G-A-N. New Vegan Cafe. There's several now. There was one in D.C. on Georgia Avenue. There's one in College Park on Route 1. I think there may be one in Virginia now. But I will tell you, I took my husband there, who, again, is not a vegan, and he tried their crab cakes and he said, you know... I mean, I might be able to do this. That's great. I will get that. I will try there. And my kids, everybody in the family likes it. We enjoy that. You know, if I'm making something at home, I'm sure I'm putting in less salt and less this and less that. It is better. And I'll just take this opportunity to say, make your food at home as much as you can because you control the ingredients. That was one of the good things that came out of COVID. More people cooking at home and eating out less for whatever reason. And my reason was, A, I didn't want to leave my house. And after seeing all those different episodes of what comes out of your mouth when you don't have a mask on, having someone else prepare my food kind of grossed me out. That is true. So A couple of things happened during COVID, right? Some people got really good at making food at home and enjoying it. And some people got really good at, you know, ringing up DoorDash and getting that food delivered. I think the ones who were at home making their own food were faring better, I believe. This is anecdotal. And the others that were eating out all the time or bringing the out in, some began to put on weight. Right. Because they were eating foods heavier than what they would make at home. You know, with more salt in it, with more fat in it. I always say you're getting more sugar, fat and salt when you eat out. It all tastes good. So, you know what? You just mentioned that sugar, fat and salt so that you're getting more of that by eating out. So those also means you should be reducing that while you're cooking at home, too. Right. That is absolutely correct. And talking about that, that's one thing that we in class talk about. You want to reduce that. Some people don't know how much salt should I have a day? How much salt should I have a day? Do you all know? No, I don't have a clue. I will tell you that it is a maximum of one teaspoon. And it should be no more than three quarters of a teaspoon. The recommended amount that you could have is about 2,300 milligrams, which is about a teaspoon. And optimally, you would have about 1,500. So most people are getting three times what they should, at least. And when you go out to eat, I always say if the food tastes really good, oh man, are you kidding me? And that contributes to high blood pressure, right? The salt, the sodium. High blood pressure. And so you want to be Very careful about that. And then high blood pressure causing heart disease. It just kind of spirals. So you want to make sure that you control your salt. You control, and I say fat, and that includes many added oils and it includes added sugars. And so I find it at this point pretty easy to minimize those things. But they are very difficult when you learn to cook a certain way. So you have to convince people that they can cook a different way and that it'll still be good. Okay, so you gave us the number for salt. What is the max for sugar and fat? About six teaspoons of sugar, kind of a max. And when it comes to fat, and remember, I'm teaching people to fight chronic disease, to prevent it or to help reverse it, to lower their risk factors. And so pretty strict when it comes to the fat. You're trying to eat food that per serving is around three grams. That's really low. Three grams of fat. When you're eating meat, you can't do it. When you're eating cheese, you can't do it. But what you're looking at, let's say for a day, maybe about 30 milligrams or something. It's not a lot. It's not a lot. But here's the thing. What we want to make sure is that we can eat enough food and that it is very nutrient dense, but not calorie dense. That's what we're looking for. And that will help us achieve all of those goals. And so there's even a little chart where it says on this side of the green, on the red, this is the green side. This is the green line. This is the red line. And so you want to eat more green foods, some yellow foods and minimally red foods, which meat will come into another saturated fat. That's one way to do that. Everyone's concerned about portion size, portion control. I don't really worry about it because the foods I eat are mostly very low fat naturally. Okay, I appreciate that information. Thank you very much. I'm also wondering, you know, we talked a lot about meat and giving up meat or reducing our meat. What are some meat alternatives? For example, my son... who is a phenomenal cook, has tried on several occasions to get me to eat tofu. And you and I have had this conversation about tofu. And the only time I've actually liked tofu that has been prepared in my home by my son, not by me, has been like a scrambled, he like scrambled it and he seasoned it with all these really good seasonings. Now that was really good. But he tried the other day to fool me. To fool you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I'm in my office doing whatever and he's taking over my kitchen. I've just given that all up. He came and he said, there's these chicken nuggets that he makes every now and then because he doesn't eat a lot of meat. So every now and then he'll make one of these dishes. And they're really good. So the other day he said, here, mom, try these. And I didn't like the way he started that conversation. That was a trigger right there. And he said, you always told us to be open-minded. So you'd be open-minded, right? So I'm like, okay, fine. So he brought me the little sauce, you know, that he had made, you know, from scratch and, and I'm biting into it. And I'm like, this is tofu, right? He said, yes, eat it. And I'm eating it, and it was an acquired taste. We'd just like to know what other meat alternatives are out there for our audience, if they are like me, who only seems to like the scramble version of tofu. I'll eat tofu if it's served to me, but I won't cook it. I tried cooking it once, but I could not get it together. It takes some learning, you know, to do that. Tofu is soy. It's soybean. Soybean, right. Yeah, soybean curd. And so tofu is very nutrient dense. It's a good substitute for meat. And they do all sorts of things with not only tofu, but with just soy-based products. Now, I would say I only, as far as I know, will eat organic, non-GMO tofu. Exactly. I think that's just the safest way. you know, to go. Just like people eat a lot of organic food. Some do, some don't. I try, but I'm not always going to spend that money. But there are substitutes. So there are other versions of tofu. It's not tofu, but soy. There's edamame. Oh, I love edamame. Like lime. The beans. Very nutritious for you. Then there's tempeh, which is soy, not tofu, but it's fermented. And there's something called tempeh bacon. So you can put a sauce on that and you can marinate it for hours and then you cook it and it sort of gives you that texture. So I'm saying soy, soy, soy, because there's so many soy. But outside of that, you can use some things are made out of vital wheat gluten. There's a recipe that I have and you use that and some seasonings and then you roll it and then it looks like you have pepperoni in the end. It has all of those seasonings that you would find, you know, associated with pepperoni. So there's seitan, S-E-I-T-A-N. It may remind you of a soy product, but it's a wheat product. And sometimes you will find that it has been marinated. And I might put that in with some noodles, you know, some red sauce. I put it in soups and stews. It looks like it in the package that it's neat and it tastes good. Now it's not gluten-free. So if you're getting something that has vital gluten in it or seitan, then you're going towards the wheat side of things. But there are other things that, for instance, nuts, depending on how you prepare them, nuts does a nice job. For instance, lasagna, mushrooms also. So if I make a lasagna, it's going to have, if my daughter who's allergic to nuts is home, it's not going to have that in it. But let's take a lasagna that you're putting spinach in. You could put tofu, but if not, you can put in a nut based like walnuts or, as I say, cashews that have been ground. and they taste meat-like. There are other cheese-type products or substitutes that can go in. Mushrooms. Mushrooms are great in lasagna. All of those things in. Lots of spinach, if you like spinach. You can put other veggies in, broccoli, what have you. And then you sort of feel like I'm satiated because I have all this good stuff in here. So most plant-based foods are low in fat naturally. Some are high. Those are the ones that I would not overdo, right? And that would be nuts are very nutritious. You should eat nuts. You need omega-3s like chia seeds and also flaxseed, walnut have omega-3s. Those are the balance out of omega-6s and we'll talk about that later. So if you eat those foods, you're in moderation, you're going to be good. The other thing that is fat is Avocado. Oh, yeah. I love avocado. Very fatty. But it's very fatty. Don't give up your avocado. Just measure. I love avocados because, you know, it's like comfort food because it's nice and creamy and good. And you can put taco chips in it. You know, I will do sometimes if I'm really hungry, I'll have my tofu scramble. But then on top of that, I will have a whole grain piece of bread that I've toasted. kind of smother with some avocado, sprinkle some sunflower seeds on it, put some seasoning on it, and then maybe even a lemon juice or lime juice, something like that. That is very satiating to me. But I'm not going to eat that every day and I'm not going to eat more than a little bit. And when I say a little bit, about a quarter of an avocado is pretty good. And so let's say you eat more, but then maybe you come back on something else. Nuts and seeds are fatty, but good for you. Avocado is fatty. But the point is, everything else really isn't. So you can eat tons and tons and tons and never reach a caloric max on those foods. Because you know what I've seen on menus, I'm seeing a little bit more anyway, is cauliflower steak. Yes, I love it. There's a place that made it, did an excellent job. I don't know if I can name other places around, but for instance, moms, they have a lunch counter they call the Naked Lunch. And they had the most wonderful cauliflower steak. Really? Yeah. Organics food store. Yeah. I've turned Robert and Dean onto that like a couple of months ago. And now they're obsessed with the store. Literally. And I think now Lisa is now. Yeah. Well, I had been there once a long time ago and then didn't go back. Habitually, I go to other couple of the grocery stores. My daughter and I. So we went over there after Glenda mentioned it and ended up buying all the vegetables for our Thanksgiving. dinner. Yeah. I mean, you could take the quality of the vegetable. I mean, you could just like the sweet potatoes, especially. Yeah. It was just very good. Yeah. Yeah. Have you eaten at the lunch counter? No, I haven't. No, I haven't, but I'm going to go to Denny's to get this cauliflower steak. No, but they don't. That's what I'm going to tell you. They stop. Oh. Cauliflower taco. So I will make a cauliflower steak at home. Nice restaurants now are providing cauliflower steak. So they do have some cauliflower, but I'm missing that and I want them to bring it back. Yeah, and it's thick. It's like, you know, it's sort of meaty. It is very... And they would put it on a bed of maybe rice or quinoa. Yeah. And they put some like maybe a little like sauce or something on it, a little bit of sauce of some sort on it. Lots of veggies. But you're seeing it not at vegan restaurants. I mean, these are normal. I don't want to say normal, but you know. Because they want the whole family to come. Yeah. Well, it's like when the girls, when we would go out to eat, we would always make sure that we have some place that I'm still going to call you Barlow because I've done it for so long. What a vegan option. Vegan options. And, you know, she's had. I have a cauliflower steak at a couple of different restaurants. The one that comes to mind is Diner, Silver Diner. Oh, yeah. They even have a vegan menu. Now, the Silver, I think, well, they always have vegan food. But even Silver Diner, I believe, has a vegan menu. Separate meat that they will let you choose from. Wonderful, wonderful. And the restaurant that we went out to up in the Shenandoah Mountains. Mm-hmm. They had a cauliflower steak. I didn't try it because I chose something different, but their food is really good. You know, but kind of far too, though, you know, we've talked about all these delicious alternatives with maybe the exception of Glinda and the tofu thing. So we'll talk more about that, but also because I'm very open to, you know, I given up meat and until a couple of days ago, we won't talk about that. In all honesty, we have to talk about the price of doing this or the cost of doing this. We talk a lot about organic and organic food and what's best and you know, why organic is important. in most cases, a better option, but it's also a very expensive option. We want our listeners to be able to eat this plant-based diet without going broke. So that's a good point. And what I will say is you can do that. You can do that. First of all, these days, organic is a luxury. Right. Buying organic is pretty much a luxury. It's expensive and it's really expensive now that we're in this period of sort of inflationary times. So the cost of food in general has gone up and that also impacts organic food. But I don't know if you're aware of the fact that there is an organization, a nonprofit called EWG.org. That's the Environmental Working Group. And what they put out each year, is a list of what they call the dirty dozen or the clean 15. And so it's all about organic versus non-organic. There are certain foods that you can eat. And the fact that it's not organic would be of minimal impact to your diet. And so don't spend your money on the organic version. But some things are very important that they be organic. And you still may choose not to go that way. And if you don't go that way, it's probably going to be okay because you're eating better by eating plant-based foods, period, anyway. So an example is, and I don't know what this year's list is, but bananas, you're not going to eat the banana peel. You get rid of that. So if it's not organic, they may have sprayed it with pesticide, but you're taking that peel off. So you have a better chance of having a clean banana. Whereas strawberries are probably on the dirty dozen. And that is because if it gets sprayed, it gets sprayed directly and you're just going to eat whatever's on there. So it's nice to look at that list. They also go beyond that to talk about cosmetics. They do a lot of testing and then they let people know. So tell me, why should we be concerned about pesticides on our food? Because they put toxins in our bodies. If you want to talk about that toxin. And so, which is a good point, you know, so there are environmental toxins that hurt not just the animals. We're animals too, actually. So it would hurt the other animals, the non-humankind to eat them. Sometimes toxins get in you and they don't get out. One reason to eat plant-based is because part of what plant-based foods do is take the toxins out of your body. They have fiber. The fiber helps things slide on out. And also... All of those foods help your gut, which influences your health, period. And so we don't want toxins. We want as little, as few toxins as possible because they impact our health negatively. They can, they can. So what about the preventing for the organic food? And you may not know, but for organic foods that have fewer pesticides on it, how is that food protected from then, you know, bugs and pests? There are such things as organic treatments. In fact, for our grass now in Montgomery County, you know, they can't use certain pesticides there because they've determined that it's harmful. And so our lawn care companies have had to make changes in how they put preparations on your lawn. It is recognized, and I will say, harking back to Rachel, Carson talked about pesticides. You know, I have the 50th anniversary of the book that she wrote on Silent Spring, if anyone ever looks at that. And so it's kind of a warning. And so we do what we can to influence what happens. And, you know, I've seen these like sort of growth hormone vegetables, these sort of like really huge strawberries, you know, like really huge tomatoes. I mean, in terms of the growth hormones for fruits and vegetables... What's kind of the thinking about that? Yeah. Well, if you're getting organic, they probably aren't going to be those supersites. And so just be aware of it, but you're still getting nutrients that are good for your body from them. You're getting, and each of those, the colors, you should be eating colors of the rainbow because with the colors of the rainbow, you're getting antioxidants. Yeah. But are the growth hormones okay in fruits and vegetables? Well- Are they okay? I would say I don't have a technical answer for you, a scientific answer. But I would say that anything that is not natural, you know, not only do they have the hormones, they also get glazed with something, you know. I eat a variety. I eat a variety and I really don't worry about it because I'm eating a variety. And the other thing is the food that I'm eating is plant-based, full of nutrients. what they call nutrient dense foods, elements to it. And also it just has a lot of, again, antioxidants and they take toxins out of our body. They help us fight free radicals, which will be helpful against cancers. And so I'm more concerned about the hormones in the milk we drink than what's on the vegetables. But I'm concerned about that too. So you want to wash your vegetables as much as you can, but some things get inside. So what you do is eat a variety and hopefully your body, which is fighting cancer every day, really, your body is strong in its immunity towards various things that may come through. That's great advice. Thank you so very much. Now, moving on to the other thing people worry about. Well, actually, maybe not people, but those who are like myself, who was always in some weight loss journey is the amount of protein that one eats. needs to consume, how do you get that in a plant-based diet? Let's start with this. We really don't have to worry much about protein because if we eat a well-balanced diet, and to me that includes vegetables, especially dark leafy greens, legumes, which includes peas, beans, And well, peanuts too, but peas and beans and lentils. Lentils should be number one. So nutrient dense. And fruit and whole grains. If you get a good mix of that every day, you're going to get, believe it or not, and get some nuts in there and what have you. And seeds, you're going to get the protein that you need. Now that may sound odd, but think about this. The animals that we eat to get our protein from, how do they get their protein? They eat green stuff and berries and things and what have you. Yeah, like the 20-something deer in my backyard. Yeah, and then we eat them. What we're eating are herbivores. We don't eat the ones that aren't herbivores. Yeah, that's true. Right, right, right. Yeah, we're eating the herbivores who are nice and healthy to some extent, or we think they are, because they eat the things we should be eating. So they're sort of our secondary, you know, we're eating stuff secondhand. So just think about that. And so what do we get from them? We get the things that we need and some that we don't. We get the fat that we don't need. We get their cholesterol, which doesn't mean it's our cholesterol, but it's our fat. So we get their fat. So we get the nutrients we need and then what we don't need. We go straight to the source ourselves. We skip the fat and their cholesterol and we just get what we need. That is actually a good kind of analogy because I have to say, okay, I know we're talking about vegan eating, but the best steaks that I ever have are the ones that are grass fed. Yes. And all natural. Those are the best steaks. And you make the perfect point, Robina. Skip the cow, go straight for the vegetables and the herbs. I'm going to blow your mind one more time. And that is, let's think about the milk we drink. Hey, I don't drink milk, OK? Yeah, I'm guilty. I fed my kids so much milk and now I kind of feel guilty about that. I got pulled into that. Remember those milk commercials with the milk mustache? And then my mother was the same. You know, we were drunk on milk growing up and then my poor kids had to suffer the same fate. Yeah. So here's the thing. What's wrong with milk? First of all, let me take you here. I don't know if you want to go here, but I'm going to take you here. Why not? So with the milk, what's wrong with milk? Let's start with where do we get milk from? We get it from the cows. And was the milk made for human consumption? No. No. What was it made for? To feed baby calves that need to be like 600 pounds in a short period of time. So somehow we get their milk and all the nutrients we want, but then we get growth hormones and things that we don't want that are good for growing maybe little things like cancer and that. Anyway, I can't speak to it totally, but I can say there have been studies showing that there's some influence and especially with the fat and the hormones. So we have something called also hormone-related cancers. People will say, well, just don't eat the saturated fat so much and what have you. But if you're drinking the milk, you're getting hormones that you didn't really ask for. And again, that milk was meant for baby calf. And the visual here is you have to keep the calves. You have to keep the cows lactating in order for us to get the milk that we need. And so if we keep them lactating, they got to keep getting pregnant. Am I going too far? We're listening. You know, they have to stay pregnant. So they keep getting impregnated because that's the way the industrial complex works. And then their little calves go over to become little veals. And so that's what keeps things going for us. Then, you know, we could take it to the Amazon and how much land is being used to grow the animals that are trying to eat the greens that we should be eating. Yeah, that's true. Okay. So those are just things to think about. But, you know, leave it there. Do you use any of the milk alternatives? Yes. So here's the other thing about the milk and then the milk alternatives. No calf or any baby needs milk after weaning. Leave that. So no human being needs milk. You need calcium. You need vitamin D. Maybe the other things they fortify it with, but you don't need the milk. But we like it, right? And so we want something that So there is some approximation of that. And so that is why people like to milk alternatives. So there are good milk alternatives, but they're not all going to give you what you get from the milk. You know, like people use almond milk. And I was just looking at the latest dietary guideline. They don't mention almond milk, but they do mention soy milk. So they have respect for soy milk, obviously not respect for the other, but that doesn't mean that it's not good because if you like the flavor of it and you want something that acts like milk, but doesn't necessarily have the same properties in it, that's fine. And they add things, even normal milk adds vitamin D to it, right? Just regular cow's milk. But so when you get to soy milk, you just need to look at your nutrition facts on the box and see what's in it. Again, I get unsweetened because if I want to sweeten it, I can add that. I'm going to get something that is organic. So soy is a good alternative. Almond milk is a good alternative because what are you looking for in an alternative? It's not going to give you all the same vitamins, but you can get those from where the cow gets them from, which is the food that you eat from the ground. So let's talk about other alternatives. The latest thing, which I haven't even tasted, but it's been around a couple of years, I think, is a pea milk, which to me has... one of the largest amounts of protein from any of those plant-based milks. I think it's about seven grams or eight grams. I've never seen that before. Yeah. So there's pea, which, so oat is good, but probably four grams per cup or something like that. And then you have, but pea milk seems to be pretty rich in the protein, if that's what you're looking for, right? And don't feed the baby the pea milk and all that. It needs mother's milk until it's done with milk. Yeah. I'm thinking about for myself and my Cereal in the morning. So I use soy for my cereal, for my oatmeal. But I also use almond milk for other things that I milk for. And on a side note, you know, my youngest of four is allergic to dairy. He grew up without milk. And, you know, we just found different things that had calcium and vitamin D in it. And he's six foot, so. Yeah. You know, our industries are really good at marketing their stuff. You know, there's no jingle for eating a banana or drinking anything outside of the dairy milk. Yeah. I mean, I have to admit, I fell into that whole milk marketing thing. I will never forget. We had to drink milk every day when I was in college. elementary school. Right, milk and graham crackers. I love the graham crackers, but couldn't stand the milk. Well, three quarters of the population, maybe not in the U.S., but in the world, can't tolerate milk. And they didn't have milk to tolerate. So how was that so crucial to our thing? And yet we lead the world, I believe, in heart disease. We're pretty close up there. So there are a lot of things. If you look at the whole circle of things, A lot of this makes sense. Right, if you do look at the whole circle of things. And if you look at, if you've ever read any of these books about the blue zone, and they don't talk about people in the blue zone drinking milk. They talk about them, how they eat, what they eat, the moderation that they eat. A lot of it is plant-based, but nobody ever mentions milk from a cow. Well, let me make one comment about it. There are cities that are starting to follow that. and showing some positive results. It's a positive thing to read about. And when it first came about, it was there were a few in the United States, but not to the extent that it is now because it has really grown. And they're showing the longevity of people and the health benefits of doing it. Yeah, I would say also when we're talking about foods from native places where people are eating better, And I don't know why Africa wasn't included in that. And maybe there's no one place that they could go and find all these centenarians. But we have to think about the fact that very healthy people came from Africa because they were eating off the land. They didn't have all that we have. And people actually that come here from there, according to studies I've looked at or been exposed to, many people are healthier before they come. And then they adapt to our lifestyles. And everybody gets fat and happy. You know, I'm just saying that we need to understand that eating off the land is so vital. But, of course, during slavery, we had to just eat what was given. And so we learned to make it good. Taste it, right? Yeah. The one thing that comes to mind that I never liked was chitlins. But I understood it. I just didn't partay. But I understood it. That was a delicacy. We had family that, you know, my mother used to whisper to me and she'd say, okay, they have chitlins, but you're not used to them. Don't eat very much of them because they could make you sick. And that was sort of how we handled it. So I can tell you they were darn good, but I rarely ate anything. Yeah, my siblings would smother them with hot sauce. Because my mother would cook them every Thanksgiving. They would be part of the preparation. I was never a fan, largely because my sense of smell is really strong. When they're preparing them, they have a true sense of smell. And for me, it wasn't a pleasant sense of smell. But there are delicacies. And you know what? I found out that other cultures use them, too. Like the Cubans and the Mexicans, they just didn't call them chitlins, and they actually prepared them differently than a lot of the southern people. People prepared them. So, I mean, my great aunt made chitlins. My aunt makes chitlins. Yeah. I mean, I remember them smelling kind of like vinegary, I think. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. But I didn't eat a lot. I probably just had a little just out of respect for my great aunt who made them. Yeah. I had no respect for that. But after my aunt, like my mother never made them. Yeah. And really, you know, and I never did it. So it's just that our culture has come a long way. Yeah. Right. Yeah. We were forced to eat. Yeah. Protein for a second. Again, we don't need a whole lot extra. We eat too much already. Actually, we have overdone it on protein. And then some studies have shown that there have been issues with people that consume a lot of fat, consume too much protein, the imbalance in what we're doing. I was going to mention when you asked also about substitutes, protein you can get from beans, grains, and mostly lentils, beans, peas, all that, lots of protein. That's what we should be focused on. And I have a recipe that I have made and taken to other people sometime, a few other people. And it's a recipe that, like a few others that sort of lean towards. It comes from part of what I do. It's part of the Food for Life program that is the African-American Culinary Heritage Program. And so what they try to do, what we try to do is prepare foods that are closer to what people might want to eat rather than to be told, this is good for you. Oh, you like gumbo? Here's some gumbo. So I make a gumbo. with the okra in it and all the other seasonings. I use the filet, what they call filet, and I use the Creole seasoning, but there's one without salt and one with salt. And then I use, if you've ever seen like the field roast in the stores in a vegan section and it looks like little sausages, they have something, one is maybe maple applewood, but they have nice flavors to them, hickory. And you cut them up and put them in. That's your meat. And those are mostly either a wheat or soy-based product. And just put them into your sauce. Now you have the chewability. You have all of the nice vegetables that you want to have and all the seasonings that you want to have in a gumbo. Does it taste just like gumbo? Of course not. But if you're giving up eating meat all the time, you might say, well, maybe I'll try this. There's another recipe of sunrise biscuits because people like biscuits. What does it sunrise biscuits have in them? Unbleached wheat. I'm sure we put soy in it, soy milk in it. It uses a biscuit, a vegan biscuit. Do I use this quick for anything other than that recipe? No, because I want whole grains in my food. However, I think of it, again, as a transition food. You meet people where they are, bring them over a little bit, and they may find other recipes that they like. Pancakes, you know, we put some pancakes in there, and you can have vegan pancakes anytime. We're just making it with slightly different ingredients. There was also some kind of trail stew we made. Just some different flavors that harken back to food. something that reminds you of maybe it's New Orleans or soul food or what have you. Is there a website or a social media site that might have some recipes that people might be interested in trying out? So I teach classes each week and people can sign up if they're in Montgomery County. The group that I work with is the African American Health Program of Montgomery County. And if you just Google AAHP of MoCo, you will get it. And from there, They have a program and I teach, show all the recipes and what have you. Beyond that, PCRM, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, if you Google them and you ask for recipes, you will find a million recipes that are vegan. And then there are books that I share recipes from with people like Sweet Potato Soul by Janae Claiborne. She's in the Atlanta area, and she has some wonderful candied yam, black-eyed pea hummus, tender method green collard greens, skillet cornbread. So there are some Black influencers and chefs in that regard. And so I think people can find something that they're looking for. What do people want to reach out to you, Robyn? How do they do that? So fortunately, I have what I'm going to call a just-in-time social media. And so I can be reached on RK Barlow Plant-Based Coach. And when you go there, you can also find some information. And I'm just getting it going. But I can also be reached at a plant-based coach. at gmail.com. But again, if you go to the social media, the Instagram, rkbarlowplantbasedcoach, you will get to more information and I'll be posting information regularly about upcoming classes. So not only do I do classes through the African American Health Program, but I do other community classes. Most of my classes right now are via Zoom. I can be reached. And there are many class offerings. And again, PCRM is a good reference if you just want to get some recipes. When I think about the fact that, you know, you do get test results back and doctors do tell you, oh, you're okay when they see that you're on a borderline, you know, and the first thing they want to do is give you meds, right? Yes. And then when I talk to my friends who are pharmacists, they're like, why are you taking that? Don't take that. That stuff is hard. I mean, they may be giving it to someone else. I mean, you know, I went to college with them, so they're my friends. So I was like, well, what's the interactions with this or that? And they give me this whole breakdown of you got to find some other alternative. She said, but I'm not going to tell everybody that because, you know, I am a pharmacist. I just want you to know that I appreciate that you came on today in your busy schedule and you're sharing this with us. But even more, I appreciate the fact that you've been sharing this with me for some time. It's not an easy journey to be on, but it's the right journey to be on with adding more plant-based to your diet. Some people, like your husband, he still eats his meat, but he has increased his plant-based intake. And I watched that journey too. And he's like, he's like, I'm on my steak. You go ahead and have your cauliflower steak, you know, or our kids, our daughters would be like, what is happening here? But we've all come around and appreciate that what you have done and what you are willing to share with our listening audience and your friends. So I just wanted to say thank you. And Robert, You know, one of my four absolutely loves talking to her about food. And when he started to talk to Danny about it in our recent trip to Mexico, Danny was like, no, I'm not my mother. I eat meat. Well, you know, I will say, though, sometimes you learn a harder way, but the ears are open because I see some changes. You know, I didn't bring them up this way, but I didn't give them a lot of meat. I didn't give them any red meat, but then as they got older and I wasn't always in charge, that's okay. They know I've been in their ear and now I'm backing off and letting them just see, letting them see. Robin, and we will take your tips and start our new health journey. And we hope that everyone will do that. Thanks for joining us in our podcast today. Be sure to check us out at our website at www.twoblackmomsandamic.com, where we hope that you will subscribe. You can also hear this and our other podcasts on Google Podcasts, Spotify, iHeart Radio, Amazon Audible, and Podchaser. If you like what you hear, we hope you'll give a great review. Hey, thanks for joining us today. This is Glenda. And this is Lisa. Two black moms and a mic and we're signing off.